32 Comments

Lovely poem, Tara. I’m not submitting single poems to journals these days, but I recognise your dilemma. My own feelings on this are as follows. I only really got back into writing poetry because of Substack and I don’t feel like putting any journal above that - apart from anything else, I’ve found journal publishing is disappointing: there’s the initial euphoria at being accepted, and then the poem is published and it goes silent. On the other hand I only post up one poem a week on Substack. That means that I’m often writing more than I post - so I would have poems to spare, to send to journals, if I wanted to. Perhaps the solution is to keep posting on Substack, but not too frequently?

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I know exactly what you mean when you say you don't want to put any journal above this Substack community. I share that feeling completely. I think I go through periods of time when I don't write as much and I start to feel some anxiety about what poems to share here and what to save for publication. When my mom was still alive and my kids were home from college for the summer, my focus was not really on writing, except in the most basic of ways (jotting notes for future poems on my phone). Now I'm in this funny in-between period where I haven't totally reclaimed my focus, but I can see it in the distance. In the meantime I have to wrestle with why I'm submitting to journals, and what I hope to gain from doing it. I may find some really good answers to that, or I may not. Thanks for reading!

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My pleasure, Tara. And good luck with your poetic journey, whatever you decide.

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Hope you don't mind me jumping in to answer your 'to post or not to post' question re: poetry.

I have two published books of poetry, the first indie, the second with a small press in Oregon. I've also been writing on my author website for about 12 years and here on Substack about a year, where I've published many poems as well.

As to the submitting to journals question, if your work has been published (which means "to make known," btw) anywhere digitally, whether to your paid or free subscribers, it's considered 'previously published.'

I know it's hard to hold back work that you want to share (I have a couple of poems I'm working on now for journals) but when you do, it can be worth the wait, not the least of which is offering you time to revise, revise, revise.

As to online writing communities, may I suggest The Habit? Jonathan Rogers of The Rabbit Room runs it and there are several active poets in the group. Membership is $15/mo--about the price of two lattes.

I know how critical in person encouragement (or Zoom person) is when it comes to our writing--The Habit community might could work. (And no one asked me to say that.......... :-)

Thanks for asking the question.

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Hi Jody! Thanks so much for taking the time to respond. I really appreciate your perspective. I think I have a philosophical disagreement with the current lit mag/journal model, which is not to say I expect it change because I don't like it. But I really found the argument for "curation" that I posted a link to above to be very persuasive. All good fodder for discussion. I appreciate you being here and thank you so much for the suggestion of The Habit. I will definitely check it out. Much appreciated.

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Hi Tara! Lovely poem. I enjoyed the sense of companionship between the two walkers and the light reflecting off the water, and the feeling of benign acceptance and a gentle curiosity.

The question of whether or not to hold back work isn’t one I’ve wrestled with personally on Substack. I don’t have an academic or literary career to consider. I’m here to write, and to connect with others through my writing. I hope to assemble some of my work into a book and get it published conventionally or on my own. Poets have a unique set of issues. I wish I had something to offer you, beyond my friendship and support. You will always have that.

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Thanks for reading, Mary. I definitely need to puzzle out my reasons for publishing here vs. publishing in journals. Thanks, as ever, for you kindness and support. 🤗💕

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Beautiful poem, Tara! I love the way you switch awareness from the people walking in the poem to the moon and stars. I love moments that either zoom way in or way out and this does both. And, I'm always biased to art that looks at us humans as part of the whole experience rather than assuming we're always at the center of it all.

As for your question, I am not a poet's poet, but if I may share some of my thoughts as a writer... I find that I get stuck on these kinds of decisions when I don't know or am not willing to admit to myself what I personally want or what my goals are. Do I want readership, interaction, money, accolades, career advancement, or something else? Once I can pinpoint what I want, even if it's a combination, I usually get a clearer sense of what to do. Even if my choice goes against the grain of old ideas, current industry expectations, or antiquated but still-around industry assumptions. Once I've found my 'why' I feel so much better moving forward no matter what.

Whatever you choose, I always enjoy reading your poems and intros to them, and know you'll land on a decision that fulfills you and brings you joy. :)

Also, do I hear the beginnings of you starting a poetry journal that curates instead of gatekeeps? 😉

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Finding my "why," as you put it, seems like the crux of the matter. Having foregone the career I felt everyone expected me to have in order to be home with my kids is a decision I've never regretted. And yet. There still lives in my head this need have an identity separate from motherhood, to be seen as having achieved something in the professional sphere. I love writing poetry and will continue to do it regardless. What I'm wondering more about is why I feel the need for someone "official" to tell me that my poetry is good - that gatekeeper you mentioned. And, holy cow, I had never even thought of starting a journal and haven't the first idea how it's done, but when I read those words it was like a little fireworks display went off in my mind... Petra, you are so lovely and so wise.

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You are very kind, Tara. 😊 And while some of my life situation is different, I totally get what you are saying. Those outside voices (which sometimes become inside voices) can be loud.

🎇🎆And hooray for the fireworks!!! 🎆🎇 I'm excited to see what you decide. :)

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Love the poem Tara! For me the whole publishing deal is so off putting, it's my work and I should decide where it's published, but then I don't submit to journals or anything, sharing on Substack for me is about letting others comment and critique my writing and I "know" the audience, whereas poetry journals don't offer that. Saying that I would still like to self publish one day...

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You're right about not getting much feedback from journals. I had the surprising and pleasant experience of having a poem selected for publication by Tadpole Press, and one of the benefits was a thoughtful response to my poem with some really great suggestions. I had the same experience with the Maine Prize Poem Contest this year. So lovely, and such a departure from the norm. Thanks for reading!

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First of all, I love this poem. It was lovely to read out loud, too. That freedom to walk and talk is so precious. I hope when my little kids are older, my husband and I can do this together.

I don't have thoughts to contribute regarding submission, but I'm eager to hear what other people are doing, since I know other Substack poets besides you are getting published regularly in journals.

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I can't tell you how happy it makes me that you sometimes read my poems out loud. It makes me feel famous. 💕 I go back and forth on the whole publishing thing. Sometimes it just feels like vanity. I need to do some thinking about what I actually hope to gain from submitting. Or maybe it's bigger than that. Maybe I have to think about what this whole "writing poetry" thing is about. What are my goals? Where do I want to go with this? Or maybe I just need to go for a walk!!

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I don’t think that wanting to be published is vanity. We all know the deep, amazing impact of traditionally published books on our own lives, right? (You maybe more than most.) It makes perfect sense that we all want our words out in the world. But you’re making me think about goals as well.

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First of all, love the poem as ever, and the power of walking is something that has come up frequently amongst my little corner of the substack community lately. Might be a common love of the poet.

As for the question - I understand your struggle with this. I think for me the main challenge is commitment to two outputs. It feels like a full time commitment or at least a long term outcome. I mainly feel it is hard to step into a space where I am writing enough to be both publishing weekly on Substack and submitting other stuff to publications. Even considering that the "other stuff" will be locked away even from other publications for weeks and months.. it is a big commitment.

Possibly though the outcome of being published is worth that - and you can only know by trying I guess.

As for the Paywall as a solution, I personally don't think it solves anything because Publication is Publication unfortunately... in fact if someone pays for the privilege to read it then it is probably even more published (if you can put such a thing on a scale). However I do believe people should have the right to request pay for their art - I have everything on my Substack for free but I allow paid subscribers - I feel that is a really nice balance on Substack. So totally go for it if you feel you want to, but I don't think it helps with your challenge of keeping stuff unpublished while submitting.

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Really appreciate your perspective on this, David. I think you're right that a paywall doesn't really solve anything. And I share feeling that writing for two different purposes (substack, and lit mags) is a huge commitment that I'm not sure I can manage. I absolutely agree with you that people should be paid for their art... in theory. In practice, I still feel really funny about turning on paid subscriptions. I have not totally unpacked the reasons for that. Something to ponder in the colder months ahead. Or on one of those long walks! Thanks as ever for reading and for you thoughtful comments.

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Ok this poem is beautiful. The turn from you being the observer to being is gold. Thank you for sharing this.

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Brian, thank you! That is such high praise. I really appreciate you being here and taking the time to read and comment. So glad you like this one.

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Tara, this is such a lovely poem. I love how you weave together the walk, the peregrine falcons, and the stars.

As to your question, I mostly post previously published poems. I too love the community of poets here. The poems I post are now read by probably more people than they were in the journals they were published in. At least I get more feedback and I’m sharing my poems with friends and family who never got to see them before. I have posted new poems but not if I want to send them to certain journals. I thought there was an option to just send posts to subscribers, whether paid or unpaid, which would limit the audience. That said, I’d pay to read your poems.

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Thank you, LeeAnn! Lots to think about going forward. But I agree that my poems certainly see more eyes here than they do when published in journals.

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Love this poem Tara! I love walking too and I love the idea of walking with my husband somewhere for dinner. The perspective in your poem is so inspiring and I love the comparison!

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Thank you, Kym! Thanks so much for reading.

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I only have two cents, but you are certainly welcome to it. If you want to write for journals, then keep that work separate for submission. That way you aren’t breaking any ‘previously published’ rule. Of course, you’ll be faced with deciding which of your pieces are kept back for publication, but how hard can that be? If the piece is declined, you can always post it on Substack. While you’re waiting to decide whether you want to submit it elsewhere, you may change your mind and you can publish it here. Regarding the subject of monetization, every Substack writer has that option, but I don’t see how it affects whether you split submissions. I started my ‘stack because I thought maybe I had something to say and I wanted to find an audience that I could speak to and that would provide feedback. I never intended to charge but people are free to pledge, although those pledges would only go in effect if I turned on Paid Subscriptions. I’ve started my second year and I am happy with the results. So much of what you’re asking depends on your personal goals as a writer.

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Thanks for offering your thoughts, Paul. Much appreciated. As the many wise poets of Substack have suggested here, yourself included, a lot of what I'm wrestling with has less to do with poetry, and more with how I see myself as a writer, what my goals are, and how much I have to prove to myself. I'm coming up on my 1 year anniversary here, which may be partly why I'm poking my intentions with sticks to see what happens. Thanks for being here.

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This is a lovely poem, Tara. And I agree about the pleasure of walking and talking (I'm just back from a long walk to the park and back).

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Thanks, Jeffrey. I appreciate you being here. Enjoy your walks!

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Love this whole post, Tara! Our kids are only 2 and 6, and already, they like to moan, "Aww man, do we HAVE to walk?? Why can't we just DRIVE??" I wonder what the average age is at which people start to enjoy walking for its own sake. And as for walking all the way to town for a meal, there's nothing better than that feeling, for some reason. It's as if downtown is right in my front yard, just extended out a bit.

Loved your poem, how it made me think about how different species view each other. Love the misdirection in your line "near the road and the moon".

As for your question...that's a tough one for me too. I haven't seriously tried submitting anywhere. It would be tough to submit poems that my readers here haven't even seen. So I do think it should be OK to take a poem down (delete it I suppose; you can always save a copy of the full post's text elsewhere if needed). I'm not sure about putting a paywall in front of it. I guess it all comes down to how serious the editors are about their policy, and what they will actually do to enforce it. I'll be following along to see if you gain some clarity here.

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Thanks, Mike. Yes, walking is truly is both a learned skill and a pleasure. I didn't have a car until a year after I graduated from college, so I did an awful lot of walking at the ages my kids are now. I don't ever remember not enjoying it, but I suppose I didn't have much of a choice. So glad you liked the poem. And I've really enjoyed all the thoughts here on publishing vs. Publishing (with a capital P). One thought I had was to limit myself to chapbook contests for a while. Since it's a collection of poems instead of a singular poem it seems they don't generally expect them all to have never been seen before. And since I'm building up a body of work, it would interesting to think about order and groupings that enhance the individual pieces and consider them as building blocks, in a way.

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Haha my husband and I are 30 and we love a good walk! I think it was late 20s for me but early 20s for Chris - maybe he's more mature than I am 😉

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It does me double think before I post anything. I do want to submit poems for ‘proper’ publication too. But I can’t always tell what is good or not. Some I’ve put on here because they were rejects of a sort and they’ve found their audience, others I really like have had crickets. Who knows what to do?

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Mmm. It’s a great question, Tara. I jumped into “real” publishing over a 5 year period. After initial rejections I entered some poetry awards/competitions because they are judged “blind” I won several regional and national awards, and then the journals that had been rejecting me started accepting me. That told me something about the game….

I dislike networking and self promotion - so after 5 years I kept writing but I simply ceased all publication.

Now - after a 22 year total “silence” I am self publishing here on Substack - and loving it. I love the community and the dialogue with other writers.

I’m publishing a mix of old stuff from my publishing days, unpublished stuff from my non publishing days - ie my back catalogue - and some brand new work. I know that in “traditional” terms Substack is “vanity publishing “ therefore I am also holding a few pieces back - for submission to “Trad” publication and awards. But really - isn’t that a form of vanity too?

In the end, I’m doing both because I do want to communicate - but I must say, I’m finding Substack a far better and more engaging medium for publication- because it is a living community of writers and readers.

I have chosen to keep my Substack free of charge, because I don’t need to earn a living from it - but I do believe in writers being paid for their creation. At some point I may do a voluntary payment option.

Best wishes

Dave :)

Really - which is the

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